Topic: Wheeler or three point landing?

[Dean Cross]

Well, what are your preferences in the Chipmunk?
Three points on grass and wheelers on tarmac me. Any ofers of experience out there?
Dec

[Rod Blievers]

I’m surprised this one hasn’t yet generated any responses, so here goes for my humble opinion.

My choice of landing technique is much more dependant on the conditions than the runway surface. If the wind is light then I’ll always try for a three-pointer – if the wind is strong/gusty and/or has a significant (more than 5 knots) crosswind component then I’ll plan a wheeler. There is an exception to this (and probably never a consideration in the UK!) which is landing on a hot sunny day on a sealed runway – there are many thermals, the Chipmunk floats and floats, then finally drops on when you least expect it – I always use a wheeler in these conditions. One Chipmunk operator has suggested that flapless wheeler landings are desirable in this situation. This seems a little harsh on the tyres – what do you think?

I’m not attempting to pontificate as an expert, far from it. I learnt to fly on Chipmunks in the early 1960’s at an Aero Club whose attitudes were set rigidly by its Tiger Moth/all-over grass field background, even if that wasn’t the reality any more. Thus, all approaches were glide approaches and all landings were three-pointers. No flexibility of thinking was tolerated. Crosswinds were handled by a crabbed approach and flare, then ruddering the aircraft straight the instant before touch-down. This tyro found this extremely difficult then, and even now I wouldn’t trust my judgement sufficiently – hence the preference for a “wing-down wheeler” in this situation. After a four year career flying light twins, I then spent the next 30 odd years flying airline “Big Iron”, and have only in the last three years started flying light aircraft again, so there are truly no claims of superior knowledge here.

I’d be interested in your thoughts.

[Dean Cross]

Hello Rod,
No expert here, I first flew the Chipmunk two years ago and am still learning to fly it properly! Weather permitting, My preferences are as stated (three point grass, wheeler tarmac), saving the tailwheel rubber. Gusty conditions or significant crosswinds favour the wheeler in my experience, half flap gives best control with a gust not putting you above the limit speed of full flap. In this condition power is used until the mains are on and "stuck" with a nudge of forward stick with better control all the way to taxi speed. If a ground loop is to occur it is likely to result in a pilots red face and nothing worse
In these conditions the ground speed is so low as to not hurt the rubber despite the increased IAS.
Inlight winds I favour the full flap wheeler, speed low enough not to hurt mains yet saving the vulnerable tailwheel.
On grass, even in cross winds I like to three point, stick firmly back gives best control as the traction on the tailwheel bites  firmly( I presume something akin to the skid on a Tiger), and there is less chance of losing her. Wheeler too precarious  on the  uneven surface of "God's Carpet"

The Chap who sent me solo in a Chipmunk never touched on wheeler landings and ,I gather ,never does with any of his students. My mentor (retd RAF type) flew all of his basic training on the Chipmunk in the fifties and never used the technique. My recollection of the RAF intsructors manual for the Chipmunk never mentions it either!
I will not let anyone fly one in more than 10kts without the "ace" of the wheeler up their sleeve. Not up here when the weather can change so quickly and if you wait for 10 kts or less, you spend an awful lot of time admiring the Chipmunk on the ground.
Cheers,
Dec

P.S. Are you paying us a visit inthe UK this May?

[Bob]

The RAF T10 Student study guide only mentions 3 point!
When I can get my scanner to talk to the computer I'll post the relevant paragraphs.
From the photos it like you've got the hang of landings Rod!

Bob

[Bob]

Ok try these 2 pages, crosswind landings and a slipping turn with flap.They are from the RAF training guide.click on the image to read it    
Edited as the pic URL's now point to other pictures that are deffo not Chipmunk related!

[Rod Blievers]

Aha! I was wondering why I'd never seen this before, now I discover that my "Pilot's Notes for Chipmunk T.10" (AP 4308A-PN) finishes at Page 32 (the cockpit illustrations)!

However, what you've sent is consistent with what's in the "Flying Instructor's Handbook - Chipmunk T.10" (AP 3225C) which also mentions the technique for wheel landings, though not why you'd fly the aircraft this way...

A thought about the described crosswind technique - isn't the situation of approaching full up elevator, rudder applied plus opposite aileron combined with decaying airspeed awfully similar to the "advanced spin entry" as described in the latter publication?? I know I've been brainwashed in 30 odd years of airline flying into using the "wing down wheeler technique", but it does enable me to divide the problem areas; firstly you can concentrate on the touchdown and then, as the tail comes down, on keeping straight. The disadvantage is that technique requires significantly more runway - I occasionally fly into a friend's private strip (600 metres over big trees, so the effective length is rather less), so I won't go in there in a crosswind.

This Forum is great value - over to you.

Cheers,

Rod.

[Bob]

600m ! you Aussie's are spoilt!!
 
I also like to be in control in a xwind and feel low level spin entry is to be frowned apon..a gentle wing down and add a couple of knots seems to work.
I'll have to take some photos of our strip! (480m trees and farm buildings at one end)

Bob

[Duncan]

Certainly food for thought!

I have very few hours on the Chipmunk however here is my £0.02 worth!

On tarmac I routinely use the crab approach, squeeze off drift and wheeler landing technique and have no problem at all.  By using the wheeler landing you are not going anywhere near full elevator travel and the visibility is fantastic both down the approach and in the round out to compensate for the drift.

On grass at our "home" strip, again due to obstacles I use the crab/sideslip techniques until round out, then smoothly squeeze off the drift and stabilise in the round out to touch down on all 3.  The good visibility down the approach allows for an accurate approach to a designated touchdown point (no laughing Declan!   ), to be able to utilise as much of the LDA as possible.  Using the short field speeds should mean that as you round out and straighten the nose, the speed will wash off sufficiently for the aircraft to touchdown quickly with zero drift in a "gentle" 3 pointer.  Then its dab, dab, dab on the rudder with the stick fully back to keep straight until she slows of her own accord.  As long as the actual round out and straightening of the nose is gentle, smooth and progressive, (no bootfuls or handfuls of anything), the round out not too high and the approach speed is not allowed to wash off until round out, the aircraft will not get anywhere near departure.  The answer if you do get too slow or round out too high and start to drift is "Go Around and try again."

However, this TYRO stands to be corrected!

 

[Stu]

An airman is always quite free, sir.
To land with a bump or a greaser.
Any old clunk,
can land with a thump,
But pro's go for smoothie crowd pleasers.   :salute:

[Rod Blievers]

Bob:

Where did you get your RAF Training Guide?

I purchased my copy of the RAF "Pilot's Notes for Chipmunk T.10" (AP 4308A-PN) from the DHC-1 Chipmunk Club. I now realise that this is incomplete, ending at Page 32, i.e. the complete Handling and Limitations chapters are missing! I thought initially that this must be peculiar to my copy, yet looking at the binding it appears complete. Also, when I checked with BookFinder.com there a quite a few copies available, but they're ALL quoted as being 32 pages.

Thanks,

Rod.

[Duncan]

Rod,

Check PM's

Duncan

[Rob Merrylees]

I agree entirely with Rod's technique, using wing down to correct drift for a crosswind landing.  The pilot is able to align the aircraft with the strip and adjust wing down to counteract  drift before holding off. Usually only small correctings are needed to maitain alignment as you proceeed through the  hold off phase.   This to some degree frees up the pilot so he can apply more concentration to holding off correctly .

 Holding off in a crabbed position and yawing the aircraft straight to align with the strip at the last moment requires exact timing.  If it is miss timed the aircraft may either drift off  the flight strip or touch down in a missaligned state.

[Dick Gower]

I agree entirely with Rod's technique, using wing down to correct drift for a crosswind landing.  The pilot is able to align the aircraft with the strip and adjust wing down to counteract  drift before holding off. Usually only small correctings are needed to maitain alignment as you proceeed through the  hold off phase.   This to some degree frees up the pilot so he can apply more concentration to holding off correctly .

 Holding off in a crabbed position and yawing the aircraft straight to align with the strip at the last moment requires exact timing.  If it is miss timed the aircraft may either drift off  the flight strip or touch down in a missaligned state.

Just noticed this fascinating topic Rob and yes, could not agree more.

Wheelers, particularly tail-down ones are great in gusty conditins because the slight amount of forward stick on MLG contact dumps the troublesome lift.

They are great for saving the tailwheel wear particularly if there is any tendency for shimmy.

Lastly, they are great for students who can only look over the nose on the hold-off and therefore can not do three pointers (unless by guesswork)!

[derekf]

Hi Duncan,

I did a couple of hours on the chippie in Jersey earlier in the year but unfortunately it was then moved elsewhere.  It's now back so I'm intending to get checked out on it having done an AOPA aeros course in a Bulldog and am brimming with new found enthusiasm to do more of this sort of flying

I've also only got the smaller Pilot's Notes for Chipmunk T10 book and would be very interested in getting the other manual you referred to.

Any information on where I could get this?

Derek...

[derekf]

Anybody know?