Topic: Tail Dragger or Spam Can ?

[DGH]

Ok a hypothetical question as I'm not currently in a postion to do either but.....

If I was thinking of going for a PPL with the intention of flying a tail dragger should I -

a). Learn to fly down the road with my local club who use only Tiger Moths

or

b). Learn to fly with the other local club down the road who only use Spam Cans?

The main problem being that it will cost me half my money again to learn in the Tiger Moth. Would it be worth the extra cash?

Your comments please...

[Dean Cross]

Tough one. Depends what you want. Firstly ,I would get my license as cheaply and as quickly as possible. To convert to a tailwheel type like a cub, for instance, is not that expensive. Lavish care and attention on your local de Havilland type and a checkout will be cheaper than you think. A knowledgeable(oops Janie) volunteer is  a welcome camerade for myself during work-up and display practice(ask the boys how many times they have sat in and gleaned some useful time in a Chipmunk!!?) In the end , it is up to your own circumstances.    
Hope this is of some help...............more responses please

[Martin]

HI,

I did my training on all the stereotypical 'spam-cans', and enjoyed every min of it, essentialy as mentioned it is a means to an end, you get the golden ticket which allows you access to all the avenues that you wish to take for the most reasonable price.

After that the training and expence of tail wheel conversions does two things,

1) it gives you an appreciation of numerous different types,

and 2) it allows you to gain valuable experience in the 'seat' with a mixture of instructors teaching very different 'arts' therefore building your confidence.

"challenges are only met by those who challenge themselves"

 

[Duncan]

Although the temptation may be great, I would advocate learning the basics on something forgiving such as the "Spam-can" if you can.  They give you the opportunity to gain the confidence to push on to other things later.

If you want to add to your licence later on (night qualification/IMC) you can bet your bottom dollar that you will have to revert to a "standard" type anyway.

To be able to appreciate a machine such as a Tiger Moth or a Chipmunk fully requires the pilot to have sufficient capacity to be able to fly the basics without really thinking about it too much.  The more experience you have before converting onto type, the more you will enjoy flying the more diverse types.  It is amazing how quickly your skills become "rusty" when you have not flown an "interesting" aircraft for a while!

However as Declan says, it's down to the individual (and their wallet!) at the end of the day!!!

[Berry Vissers]

DGH - I had almost the same thoughts as you but after flying my first proper flying lesson in a Chipmunk, I opted to get my licence in a C152. Not that I'm a chicken, but a Spam Can seems (as said in previous posts) to be much more forgiven.

Also, 'up north' there are no facilities available to fly the whole syllabus in a Chipmunk. Went to Tayside Aviation at Dundee and got the choise to fly the Grob 115D Heron (ex Royal Navy, almost a Tutor) or the C152. Started in the 152 as they are more available for possible later use at different airfields when the need is there.

Once I get the (N)PPL, I will most likely start thinking about tail wheel training. Long way to go yet though... Enjoying every minute of it!

[DGH]

Thanks for all the great replys guys. I must admit I was expecting at least one reply along the lines of 'real pilots learn on taildraggers' etc  

It's great to get some good views from pilots on this. As you say the taildragger conversion is a cheaper option, reminds me of a day spent at Duxford a couple of years ago with my best mate. It was one of those hot summer afternoons with clear blue skies which we see so rarely and all we had to do was watch this poor chap going round and round in a Piper Cub trying his best not to break it! We had a great afternoon betting on how many bounces, how high the bounces, wether he would actually get it to stop floating and touch or wether he would actually break it everytime he came round, now thats great sport!!      

[octxe01]

Have just joined.
I learnt at Biggin Hill in the late 60's. Next door, was 600 club with 3 Tigers. It never once occured to me to go next door. I have always regretted this.
However, I would not recommend, generally, someone starting off on a Tiger or, indeed, a Chipmunk but a Cub would be fine. My reason relates to those I have flown with who learnt to fly a lot later than I did. The syllabus and style of teaching nowadays seems to be much more angled to procedures, processes, checklist etc etc rather than standard aircraft handling and general awareness to what is going on when you take a light plane up in the air. I tend to think that leaning on a 'reasonable' tailwheel, of some vintage, would give the better, all-round, leaning plan. Something like a Cub has the Instructor in the same cabin as the student, isn't too noisy, flys reasonable well, does not have any serious handling issues (Tiger - lousy control balance, no view from the back, noisy: Chippy - lot of potential swing).
Of course, if anyone could get a Stampe for the same price as a 152, all bets would be off.

[andrewjherbert]

Sinece you wanted a "real pilots fly taildraggers" response.....

I too went down the spam can route for my PPL and IMC, then switched to Tiger Moth at Cambridge Flying Group and now have my own Chipmunk. 

When I converted to the Tiger I was surprised by how long it took to master three point landings.  In common with several other converting pilots I felt as if I had basically done my PPL all over again.  (And in my case it was doubly frustrating as I'd picked up a seaplane rating in the USA so thought another conversion would be just a few hours....)

Cambridge Flying Group still take ab initio pilots and every year one or two get their PPL, and the sense of achievement fot them is fantastic.  Managing the solo cross country single handed, which includes getting yourself refuelled and started at every stop over makes it a physical challenge.  I know of one CFG PPL who has gone on to get a full commercial rating and fly modern jets.  The CFG instructors are very experienced at training on Tiger Moths and if you go down the trail dragger route, the quality of instruction will be critical.

While some of the comments might make you feel Tigers and Chipmunks are a handful, these comments come from people who have moved like me from benign spam cans to these somewhat more demanding types.  Remember in wartime, trainees went straight to Tiger Moths and were expected to solo at around 8 or 9 hours (but also remember the drop out rate was quite high).  So the argument for getting your PPL  on a taildragger is the sense of achievement you'll have, and the knowledge that moving to anything else, including spam cans, will be trivial.

Against this you have to recognize getting your PPL will take longer because tail draggers are more more challenging and in the case of a Tiger Moth particularly weather can get in the way as the crosswind limits are quite modest.  Servicability can also be an issue: old planes can take longer to get fixed.  Doing a PPL on a spam can first means you will have air law and navigation firmly implanted in your mind which reduces the load when converting - you just have to concentrate on the flying.  (And cockpit management - the office in a Tiger Moth is smaller and draughtier than a spam can so you can't take the kitchen sink with you).

So ab initio PPL on a tail dragger is feasible if you are up for the challenge, have the patience and budget, and live close to a good training organization (like CFG).  If you go the spam can route reckon on 10-20 further hours to convert to a Tiger Moth after your PPL.
 
If you have access to a training on a Piper Cub this may be a good compromise: it's a bit more benign than the Tiger Moth and has an enclosed cockpit.  Same is true of a Chipmunk, but it's a bit more slippery.